tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1990338437877873686.post2618145543054601689..comments2024-03-29T03:36:27.656-04:00Comments on Murder is Everywhere: The Seven Basic Plots: Why we tell stories by Christopher BookerOvidia Yuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05749549092493567689noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1990338437877873686.post-17561518450313861232017-06-23T20:46:49.635-04:002017-06-23T20:46:49.635-04:00L'AmA, that's better than being a square p...L'AmA, that's better than being a square peg in a round hole. Nobody likes being around someone with lots sharp edges...Everett Kaserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12371555243187874414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1990338437877873686.post-72356542051079852152017-06-23T19:19:59.186-04:002017-06-23T19:19:59.186-04:00Rags to riches? Really, Michael? In stories where ... Rags to riches? Really, Michael? In stories where murders are committed and the wrong person is executed? Or the crime is solved but the murder were gets away with it? I don't get how that's rags to riches. Nobody starts out poor. Nobody ends up rich. I feel like a round peg in a square hole.Annamaria Alfierihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12311596277267789834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1990338437877873686.post-54389578168066899222017-06-23T17:07:52.636-04:002017-06-23T17:07:52.636-04:00And Jeff is right (as usual), Comedy doesn't n...And Jeff is right (as usual), Comedy doesn't need to funny. It is driven by confusion which is resolved in the "seeing whole" way. So not only doesn't everyone die, but everyone lives happily ever after.Michael Sears (of Michael Stanley)https://www.blogger.com/profile/09886295534214542834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1990338437877873686.post-14391433767857753942017-06-23T17:05:33.463-04:002017-06-23T17:05:33.463-04:00Annamaria, I think your Kenya books (as a series) ...Annamaria, I think your Kenya books (as a series) fit well into Booker's mold and they are not tragedies. He would see it from the point of view of the lead characters - Vera and Justin - and indeed they do develop as a result of the challenges they face. I'm not guessing the outcome of the series, but I would guess Rags to Riches rather than Tragedy.Michael Sears (of Michael Stanley)https://www.blogger.com/profile/09886295534214542834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1990338437877873686.post-28961222416924799312017-06-23T15:06:13.759-04:002017-06-23T15:06:13.759-04:00Now there's a word I love: Hallinanian. It ta...Now there's a word I love: Hallinanian. It takes focus to type, but kind of trips off the tongue, and brings to mind an image of Tim dressed like the devil and taking care of little children.<br /><br />On the tragedy/comedy front, I often find the most touching books to be the ones that perfectly blend comedy and tragedy, leaving you with a somber feel good glow, like being in a dark room lit by a single lava lamp.<br /><br />Or something like that...<br />Everett Kaserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12371555243187874414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1990338437877873686.post-67539800309929707722017-06-23T14:18:51.855-04:002017-06-23T14:18:51.855-04:00By the way, in setting "Comedy" as a the...By the way, in setting "Comedy" as a theme, I think Booker is using it in the Shakespearian sense that "they don't all die in the end," rather than a Hallinanian sense of Bendering your funny bone. <br />Jeffrey Sigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00718317707555064653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1990338437877873686.post-15552250447016431952017-06-23T14:15:33.666-04:002017-06-23T14:15:33.666-04:00Okay, sis. Then instead I'll go to a bar--a sc...Okay, sis. Then instead I'll go to a bar--a scene that has inspired many a writer to experience true life tragedy. :)Jeffrey Sigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00718317707555064653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1990338437877873686.post-27750563938459989022017-06-23T13:43:02.718-04:002017-06-23T13:43:02.718-04:00Don't go, Bro. This discussion is great. Perha...Don't go, Bro. This discussion is great. Perhaps because I write tragedies, or perhaps because I was taught in creative writing 101 that the main character has to change in any literary endeavor, my characters are changing. Especially in the Africa series. I have known from the beginning how they would change over time as the books go by. I wish I could write comedy. But I can't be funny on the page. Hallinan and I have discussed this often. He tells me what I need to do, but I just can't do it. So I am stuck with my tragedies-- the only choice since I can't seem to write anything but what happens when a colonial power takes over, is in power, or has left behind a mess that causes all kinds of havoc. That pretty much describes every novel I've written. I know a whole lot more about what I'm doing, than I did when this discussion began. Annamaria Alfierihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12311596277267789834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1990338437877873686.post-3404813899064805502017-06-23T13:30:51.066-04:002017-06-23T13:30:51.066-04:00At the risk of digressing further into a debate ov...At the risk of digressing further into a debate over the number of angels dancing on the head of a mystery writer's pen, I also don't agree with the premise that "it's the hero who needs to change as a result" of the Comedy, OTM, and Tragedy themes, except possibly with "Tragedy." <br /><br />I doubt many would say Jack Reacher, or virtually any other hero in a comedy or OTM themed plot, changes in any significant manner, for it is society that changes in the process. However, because in Tragedy order is NOT restored to society, it can be the hero who experiences change--through the restoration of personal order--be it even in the darkest of ways. <br /><br />I think it's time for me to get out of the sun and into the sea.Jeffrey Sigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00718317707555064653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1990338437877873686.post-58464926854680111422017-06-23T11:50:41.945-04:002017-06-23T11:50:41.945-04:00He does see that. His thesis is that - because of ...He does see that. His thesis is that - because of the psychological impact - it's the hero who needs to change as a result of the Tragedy/Comedy/Overcoming the Monster. Of course, that's the bit I don't get!Michael Sears (of Michael Stanley)https://www.blogger.com/profile/09886295534214542834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1990338437877873686.post-83263997665276268882017-06-23T09:57:15.896-04:002017-06-23T09:57:15.896-04:00I thank you for the cliff notes version. I've ...I thank you for the cliff notes version. I've seen similar analyses before, all trying to alter the parameters of the works they discuss to meet their formulae. In this case, I must say his aversion to crime novels doesn't alter the fact that at least three of his common themes run to the very essence of crime novels: Tragedy (noir), comedy (normal), and, most obviously, Overcoming the Monster--the seminal purpose of crime writing: restoring order to a fractured society. Jeffrey Sigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00718317707555064653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1990338437877873686.post-85637381665127224252017-06-22T13:01:52.306-04:002017-06-22T13:01:52.306-04:00This really isn't a "how to" book. I...This really isn't a "how to" book. It is interesting but I don't think it will help write a book, and it doesn't claim to do that.<br />I'd keep those books well behind the screen. You're doing just fine without them!Michael Sears (of Michael Stanley)https://www.blogger.com/profile/09886295534214542834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1990338437877873686.post-4525306150858348912017-06-22T12:59:44.010-04:002017-06-22T12:59:44.010-04:00Sorry, Everett. Maybe it was another EK. I wouldn&...Sorry, Everett. Maybe it was another EK. I wouldn't have bought the book if I hadn't got that wrong! But it is interesting if turgid.<br />Michael Sears (of Michael Stanley)https://www.blogger.com/profile/09886295534214542834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1990338437877873686.post-6960004245072625202017-06-22T12:32:22.965-04:002017-06-22T12:32:22.965-04:00Michael, thanks for the warning. And the précis o...Michael, thanks for the warning. And the précis of the useful part of Booker's (!!) material. Your post lets me off the hook, at least when it come to this particular volume. <br /><br />I am actually afraid of books like this one. I think I should read all the how-to books about storytelling, especially novel writing. It makes me feel guilty and cowardly that I can't bring myself to read them. But whenever I try, I start to feel as if I could never do what they author is advising. And then I get all self-conscious that I am not doing it the right way. For me darkness lies in that direction. There is a whole row of fiction writing advice books behind the screen I am facing at this moment. I'm safe here, as long as they stay back there.Annamaria Alfierihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12311596277267789834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1990338437877873686.post-16296606415148922522017-06-22T11:31:08.971-04:002017-06-22T11:31:08.971-04:00I did??? Hmmm... must have been a LONG time ago i...I did??? Hmmm... must have been a LONG time ago in another story. :-)<br /><br />Reading your post, I was reminded of Heinlein's "basic plots," but couldn't remember the details and, in looking for the details, happened upon this page which has some interesting stuff on the subject from a lot of sources:<br /><br />http://www.pcwrede.com/old-ways-of-looking-at-plot/<br /><br />I finally found Heinlein's concept, which was "three basic plots":<br /><br />1) Boy Meets Girl / Girl Meets Boy / Boy Meets Boy / Multiform Meets Girl / etc. <br />A Romance: meets, loses, seeks, finds but has to work for it, finds love or doesn't.<br /><br />2) The Clever Tailor. <br />Based on the fairy tale: an individual triumphs over enormous odds through cleverness. Similar: "Rags to Riches."<br /><br />3) The Person Who Learned Better. <br />Includes coming-of-age and personal growth stories; based on epiphany, seeing through the veil into that which was previously hidden. Often centered around an over-arching metaphor that reveals the "whatness of things."<br /><br />The human mind is great at organizing and classifying shi... er... uh... stuff. It's hard-wired and is one of the reasons why we've succeeded so well and so long. But that doesn't mean it's always right. It's why people see Jesus on a piece of toast.<br /><br />Thanks, Michael, always a fascinating subject!<br />Everett Kaserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12371555243187874414noreply@blogger.com